After a very heated discussion in the comment section of the post on “ teaching my daughter Czech”, I decided to ask an expert about this particular topic and emailed Jamie. Jamie has a MA in Linguistics from Wayne State University. He has taught linguistics there and at the University of Michigan – Dearborn. He has taught ESL to adults for 17 years, and he has also taught German and a little ESL to children.Here is his very educated answer which will put many of us to rest:
CZ: Jak vestina z vas videla, posledni clanek o uceni me dcerky cestiny vypoutal vasnivou diskusi. Nedalo mi to a zanedlouho pote jsem zkontaktovala experta na toto tema – Jamese. Jamie obdrzel MA v Linguistice od Wayne State University, kde ji take posleze ucil. Tento predmet vyucoval take na Michigeneske universite v Dearbornu. ESL (English as a second language) pro dospele uci jiz 17 let, ma ale take zkusenost s ucenim nemciny a ESL pro male deti. Toto je jeho odpoved, a myslim si, ze mnohe z vas nejen ze prekvapi, ale take potesi:
Question (Tanja):
Hi Jamie,
maybe you can help us put some light on this since you are the “man” when it comes to learning languages:
A lot of my readers are young Czech moms living abroad and they want their kids to speak Czech. There are two camps of thought among us, however. Those moms that say “you have to speak Czech to your child at all times – in front of your foreign husband, relatives and friends” and second camp that says “You talk to them Czech most of the time but when your foreign relatives and friends are around you speak their language”. I belong to the latter camp. In my opinion it’s kind of inconsiderate to do that. Plus, it takes away those great moments of togetherness that you share with your non-Czech friends and family. What do you think?
The fact is that even experts don’t know how children learn languages or what approach helps them most. There are some things we do know, however:
1. Research shows that teenagers and adults learn language faster and better than small children. The idea that toddlers learn language quickly and effortlessly is based on an illusion. Consider how much language exposure and practice a typical toddler gets every day, and realize that an adult would have to study five hours a day for 14 years to get the same amount of practice that a child gets by the age of 4.
2. One reason that small children are slower at learning languages than teenagers and adults is that they still haven’t learned to segment the world yet. They have to learn which person is mama and which is dada; where the arm ends and the hand begins; what shade is blue, what shade is green and what is in between; and thousands of other things. This is a huge task that people don’t have to repeat when learning a second language after they’re a bit older.
3. Because the cognitive workload for toddlers is so huge when they are learning to speak, a child of 5 or 9, who has already learned one language, is liable to learn almost as much in one summer of immersion with grandparents and cousins as he is from nine years of Mommy talking and reading to him back in the States. You can see this with the kids of immigrants. One of my friends brought her son from Russia when he was 9 and knew barely a word of English. After three months in an American school (but still a Russian-speaking home), his speech sounded like a native-born American, except for an occasional pause when he didn’t know the right word or idiom. Within a year, he was indistinguishable from a native speaker. I’ve also seen this in the families of company employees whose children were as old as 15 when they arrived.
4. Language learning doesn’t only involve intellectual factors, but also emotional factors. No matter what the mother does — speaks her language only, or switches to English around her husband and family — the child will not learn to speak the mother’s language if he doesn’t want to. Some kids reach a rather high level of fluency in the mother’s language but then later just shut down. There can be various reasons a child will stop. In no particular order, they include:
a) He sees no good reason to know the language.
b) He thinks using the language marks him as “different” and doesn’t like it.
c) He feels that using the language creates a social separation. If speaking the language makes him feel less close to his father, his father’s family, neighbor kids or other people who are important to him. If he feels that to interact with loved ones, he has to keep stepping in and out of the language cocoon his mother puts him in, then he’s liable just to speak the other people’s language.
d) The kid is just not attracted to the cultural associated with his mom’s language. If he prefers Sponge Bob to pohadky, he’s liable to stop.
Any of these factors — and others as well — are likely to arise no matter what method the mother uses. All you can do is try your best, and hope the kid takes to the language. If he doesn’t, it won’t matter if you speak your language to him all day, he just won’t cooperate.
Jamie
Here is the list of books that Jamie recommends for us to read in case we would like some further information on this subject:
- How Babies Talk: The Magic and Mystery of Language in the First Three Years of Life
- The Bilingual Edge: Why, When, and How to Teach Your Child a Second Language
- The Bilingual Family: A Handbook for Parents
- Art of Coming Home
THANK YOU SO MUCH, JAMIE!!!!
PS: You can finish this particular discussion at the forum.
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To mi pripomina, ze mam z lonska pomerne hezkou a hodne srozumitelne vysvetlenou prezentaci z prednasky o language acquisition, hodne se tam porovnava uceni se prvniho jazyka u deti a druheho jazyka, je to docela zajimave, nechces ji poslat? Mimochodem mam pikantnost, dva zapaleni lingvisti se rozhodli udelat na svem diteti experiment, a tak ackoli byla jejich materskym jazykem anglictina, na sveho syna mluvili od malicka latinsky, tudiz se ji naucil jako svuj first language a bude ji za nej povazovat do konce zivota… a anglictinu se pracne musel chudak naucit kdyz sel do skoly. Takze jesteze ma Hahna maminku co to s aplikovanou lingvistikou neprehani 😀
tak jo, Diky!
That would be great! Thank you!
Dear Tanya,
first parahraph of Jamie’s reply is: patronising, ignorant, highly subjective and unprofessional.
The middle section talks about how quickly or slow people (kids) learn a foreign language,which is off the topic and has nothing to do with your question.
In the last point (4.) Jamie finally touches the issue we have been discussing and it is exactly why so many parents (not just women) choose the One Person One Language method (OPOL). This is ONE of many approaches that parents choose to raise a bilingual child however the best method is the one that works for each family.
I would advise parents to google useful information about various methods on raising a bilingual child. There are also lots of books on this topic. However the most important thing is to learn from the experience of other parents who have practical tips and advice (friends, internet forums etc).
At the end of the day we all want the same thing- our children to speak our language, so there is absolutely no point in arguing who is right and which method is wrong as there is no definite answer to it.
Anyway keep up the good work and good luck L.
Hi Laura,
You are totally right saying that “we all want the same thing so there is no point in arguing which method is wrong because there is no definite answer to it”. Well said!
I like Jamie’s article because it raises some very important points. It is true that although we all want the same thing, there is a danger of us getting a little too obsessed about it which will end up in a completely opposite result of what we want: our kids will not want to speak Czech because they will resent it.
Even if my daughter ends up speaking English to me, she is still the same person, says the same stuff and I will still love her very, very much.
I myself know couple of adults that were raised by CZECH PARENTS and they DO NOT speak Czech; one of them told me exactly what Jamie mentioned: “I was embarrassed for it when I started going to school – I did not want to be different”. The second “kids” said: “I just did not see any reason why to speak it”. So we may be mad about this, as parents, but there is nothing we can do; people are different and we cannot change them..
Ahoj, ja tohle vidim s hodne detma, jestli se narodily tady nebo v Cechach a jestli maji jednoho rodice Cecha nebo oba. Kdyz jsou oba cesi (nebo jine narodnosti) rodice na ne muzou mluvit cesky doma, na hristi, v obchode ci v restauraci. A deti vetsinou se snazi mluvit cesky zpatky na ne, kdyz mate stesti. Ale jakmile prijdou do skolky nebo do skoly, plno deti se sekne. Nechteji byt jini nez jejich kamaradi. A neni se cemu divit. Deti nejen ze dokazi byt ale i jsou krute. I kdyz to tak nekdy nemysly.
Jak uz jsem psala znam plno pripadu kdy deti mluvi jen cesky, pak jdou do skolky a uplne prestanou mluvit cesky. Rozumi a reaguji, ale odpovi jen Anglicky. Ale kolem 12 let zjisti ze to ma urcite vyhody (a nezalezi na tom jestli chteji jen komunikovat s rodici aniz by nekdo jiny rozumel nebo ze to potrebuji aby se domluvily s prarodici nebo bratranci) a zacnou opet komunikovat. A v mnoha pripadech se nauci za par mesicu co jsme se je znazily jako male deti ucit leta. Tanjo dekuji za topic, a za forum. Je to zajimave.
Jamie, dekuji za clanek. Clovek se priuci necemu kazdy den.
The experts do know. They may not all agree, however they do know how a child learns another language. I am puzzled though, why you brought Jamie on board. Why is he an expert? Because he has a degree in linguistics? Because he teaches ESL? Newsflash: anyone who speaks English ( even you, Tatana) can teach ESL. Jamie reminds me of those highly unqualified Americans who go to foreign countries and become English teachers because they happen to come from an English speaking country…
As a linguist, he should know, that his English is bad and use of such pearls as “but still” is grammatically wrong. I suppose he has an excuse though, because he stated that it is hard to correct a mistake in grammar in adulthood.
His response does not answer the question in any way. He is an educated ignorant, when it comes to this. Did he raise a bilingual child? No. Instead he jumps from one topic to another, talking about a Czech complex. It is all about parenting. The parents make it happen. The most popular method remains OPOL ( One Parent One Language) and it works. There are many parents out there who used it successfully and I will rather listen to someone who did it as opposed to someone who thinks he is an ‘expert’. For example, this lady: Nadine Lichtenberg
http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa051799.htm
It is better to use a common sense than listen to all the ‘experts’.
Tatano, vidim, zes povolala “experta” na dalsi diskusi o dvoujazycnych detech. Nespolehej se na jine, pouzivej stary dobry selsky rozum. Kdyz budu na miminko mluvit cesky o samote a anglicky pred ostatnimi pribuznymi,mam anglicky mluviciho manzela a ziji v anglicky mluvici zemi, miminko nevi, ze ma na kazdeho rodice mluvit jinak. Ono potrebuje vest. Metoda OPOL je prokazana, ale musi se dodrzovat. Miminko si takto usmysli, ze ma mluvit anglicky, nebot vsichni pred nim mluvi anglicky. Cestinu vnima jakoby v dali a bude ji znat pasivne, ale je vice nez pravdepodobne, ze bude mluvit anglicky. Obcas, kdyz ti bude chtit udelat radost, rekne jedno slovo cesky. V tomto veku je motivace zbytecna, v tomto veku je nutne dodrzovat jeden jazyk, jeden rodic. Pokud nekdo prebiha sem a tam, dite nema jasne utvoreny nazor a bude mluvit dominantnim jazykem one zeme, kde zije. Jsem vazne zvedava, co napises za dva roky. Ze dcera mluvi jenom anglicky? Nebudu prekvapena. Ona rodinna pohoda se da nastolit i pri uzivani nekolika jazyku, jde o to nedelat z komara velblouda. Rici o tom, co nam zde predvedl Jamie : Well said, je zabavne. Diskuse je o dvoujazyccnych detech, ne o matkach, ne o dospelych, ale o detech.Jeho komentare o ceskem komplexu jsou nemistne. Deti maji uzasnou schopnost se naucit hodne jazyku, pokud jsou k tomu spravne vedeny. Pokud jsi spokojena s tim, ze pravdepodobne plytvas cas, protoze dcera bude mluvit anglicky, cestina bude velmi pasivni, tak je to tvoje vec. Nekteri rodice se ti jenom snazi rict, pokud bys to delala jinak, budes mit jine vysledky. Jamie cosi blaboli o motivaci, ta je dulezita u starsich deti. Dite, ktere je doma s matkou a ma k ni blizko, bude samozrejme mluvit materskym jazykem. Samozrejme, ze jsou Cesi, ktere vychovavaji deti v cestine a po zahajeni skolni dochazky nechteji mluvit cesky. Jenze to neni tvuj pripad, tak proc o nich mluvit? TO je neco jineho.A jsou lide, kteri to prekonaji a deti mluvi stale cesky. Jde o to je spravne motivovat, ano, ve skolnim veku je to nutne, pokud jsou oba manzele stejne narodnosti. Proc mexicke deti mluvi spanelsky? Ne proto, ze ziji v jakesi bubline, ale protoze jejich rodice to tak chteji. Ale miminko nepotrebuje motivaci, jenom dodrzovani metody OPOL. Vybrala sis ji, ale porusujes ji, tak nepis, ze jsi velmi prekvapena, ze dcera pouziva anglictinu. Je to proto, ze je anglictina lehci? Ne, neni. Anglictina v tomto veku neni lehci nebo tezsi, dite bude mluvit jazykem matky, pokud ta matka dodrzuje spravne metody uceni, at uz je to arabstina ci cestina a druhy jazyk je anglictina.
Laura, just because the first paragraph of what I wrote was “patronising, ignorant, highly subjective and unprofessional”, it doesn’t mean I was wrong.
No parent is a perfect angel, and parents’ chosen child-rearing techniques can stem from both altruism and selfishness. Various selfish motives are well known: It’s not even controversial that some single women or teenagers choose to have a child in order to have a completely dependent living thing that loves them. It’s also not controversial that some single or divorced mothers who can’t form a satisfying relationship with a man may treat their son somewhat like a little husband whom they have more control over. You get some married couples who do everything they can to prevent their child from developing his or her natural talents, because those may lead the child away from the profession the parents chose before the child’s birth. And, of course, some parents manipulate their children in all kinds of ways against their spouses or inlaws. Some people use language as a tool for this.
If a husband and wife choose the one-parent/one-language technique, they are simply selecting one of the effective methods for raising a bilingual child. However, if one parent is so fanatically insistent on using the technique at all times that it socially excludes the spouse and inlaws in times of “family togetherness”, that parent is motivated by some emotional factor other than the generous wish to equip their child with a second language.
I have personally seen cases of what I was talking about. I have seen families where the mother is somewhat bigoted against the father’s ethnic group (thinks Americans are “stupid”, thinks Serbians are “savages”, etc.), or resents being outnumbered by people of another nationality, and then fanatically applies the one-parent/one-language method as a way of making sure her child doesn’t become “one of them”. And it wasn’t just my guess as to why they were doing things the way they were. The mothers actually admitted what they were doing and explained their motivations to me.
Silvia, there is one way to advise people on what worked for you and another to just simply shove your opinion down their throat. I am frankly tired of hearing that everybody who does not follow the same method is going to fail. I feel sorry for your child, for your husband and your inlaws here. Keep living in your “bubble” and think that it does not matter and they do not care. People try to be nice to you and have a reasonable conversations but every time that happens you just reply with the same all same, this is THE only thing that works.
I agree Silvia, I am getting little offended by your constant put-downs. I am NOT going to do it the way you are, so please stop trying to feed me your methods, I think that you have made your point VERY clear. If you read my other comments, you would see that I said if my daughter ends up speaking English to me, I am fine with it!!!
I think it comes down to values here. Which is more important- That the child absolutely, must, must, must learn Czech (or whatever else)at the expense of other things like the inclusion of the other spouse,friends etc., or there is the prioritization of other values BEFORE the teaching of language.
It obviously doesn’t need to be an either or proposition anyway. But if one takes the ‘Silvia’ approach there is apparently the willful dismissal of those values which most (I would hope) would consider to take precedence over learning a language e.g. family closeness, character building etc.
I mean, in the end what is most important -that the kid speaks some language or the kid has values, morals and a solid character? And that the family forms a strong bond? How the hell can the non-speaking spouse feel part of the family when the speaking spouse ONLY yaks away at the kid in a language all to themselves? It’s a freaking ridiculous no-brainer to anybody that gives half a rat’s arse about the family bond and the effect THAT has on the child.
PS: By the way Siliva, yes I do consider Jamie an expert because he has an MA in Linguistics; I am sorry but that is a no-brainier to me and to most people
One thing I would add is that if a parent teaches a child the habit of speaking Czech in a way that excludes other people from the conversation, then that parent is not teaching the child one of the most beautiful characteristics of the Czech nation — empathy for outsiders.
If a Czech travels a few hours in any direction, he runs into a situation where he is an outsider and has to speak a foreign language, or else where he doesn’t understand anything that’s going on and has to rely on the kindness of others. For this reason, Czechs typically show kindness and empathy toward people who do not speak their language. If you are the only non-Czech at a social gathering, the Czechs generally keep aware of the fact that you don’t understand what they’re saying, and they make a great effort to include you and make sure you know what’s going on. People from larger countries who have seldom been linguistic outsiders (the Americans, the British, the French, etc.) don’t have that kind of big heart for people who don’t speak their language.
So a child who is excluding a parent, grandparents, neighbors and others from a conversation may be speaking Czech, but he is not acting Czech.
I am glad that there are more people that see it the same way I do. I suspect Silvia will not reply anymore or we will just hear the same over again. Tanja thank you for keeping this on the right track. There is a lot of useful information out there and helpful too.
Sorry, Silvia, the experts DON’T know how children learn languages, and that’s why they disagree. It’s common sense that when people disagree on how something works, then they don’t actually know how it works. That branch of linguistic science is still in its infancy.
Yes, Silvia, I am exactly like “those highly unqualified Americans who go to foreign countries and become English teachers because they happen to come from an English speaking country,” except that I am highly qualified.
No, Silvia, not everyone who speaks English can teach ESL, and that’s why there’s such big business in the United States repairing the damage done by people in other countries who can supposedly speak English and try to teach it to people. (Usually, if a Czech English teacher’s lessons are full of mistakes, she claims the mistakes are “British English”, even if they’re not.) And you must know from your home country that people who wind up in the classes of those “highly unqualified Americans” end up running to the qualified Americans.
I doubt you would say that anyone who can speak Czech can teach it. If you do, then you haven’t ever watched Ing. Pavel Nepochopil or PHDr. Alena Hloupá try to do it. It’s often a pathetic scene, and it would be so much the worse if some ucňák tries to do it. After all, many Czechs can’t even spell properly in their own language, even though they claim it’s written phonetically.
I’d love to know when “but still” became a grammatical mistake in English, let alone a “perlička”. Those who want to have some fun at Silvia’s expense should google the word “grammar” along with the exact phrase “but still”. You’ll get hundreds of web pages in which qualified grammarians are using “but still” in their sentences.
Dear Mr.”But Still” , have you ever heard of the word tautology? Perhaps not. How about redundancy? Has it ever occured to you that but or still would have sufficed in the sentence where you juxtaposed both words? Elementary, elementary, elementary…tsk tsk tsk! When you are unable to make a definitive point about a proven and effective way to raise a bilingual child, you retreat to the obviously ambigious world of “nobody knows”. Your friend Tanja retreats into the personal, and obvious world of “I love my child anyway, speaking Czech or not”.
Results, my friends, that is what we are talking about and that is what matters. Since when did education and family togetherness become mutually exclusive???
For your information, my husband cheers me on in my very successful efforts to raise a Czech speaking child in an English speaking society.
Focus on the issue. I have proof in the results I have achieved, facts not just theories. What do you have to show for your so called expertise??????????
An expert who cannot give definitive answer, with a Master of Arts degree in what is supposed to be a science, there lies the confusion. Does science no longer call for the empirical method? Try my method, it is definitive, it is scientific and it is successful!
WOW, the post as well as the comments were very interesting for me to read. I am a full immersion instructor, but also a trilingual parent. I am raising by 17 month old to be trilingual as well.
I truly believe that you can start learning a foreign language at an early age. I did it, my students do it, and my daughter does it. It is all about experience (being exposed to it often), desire to learn (making it fun when you are young), having a good family support (have a positive attitude toward languages and not “force” it), and having fun with it all!!! The benefits in the long term are tremendous.
This is my perspective of it all.
Denise
http://www.foreignlanguagefriends.com
Dear James, I did not mean to belittle your Master of Arts degree in linguistics, if that is what you have. When I called you “an expert who cannot give a definitive answer”, I only meant to point out the lack of edifying specificity one expects to get from someone who has studied the subject of our discussion – “How to raise a bilingual child.”
Family togetherness is not usually a casualty in efforts that enlists the help and cooperation of the family members in advance. The benefits of being bilingual, be it for a child or an adult, cannot be overstated. It is to this end that I would like you to address your comments and your expertise, and not to the sometimes petty motivations and imagined casualties of what could be wonderful for a child and an advantage for an adult.
Stick to the issue of how to raise a bilingual child, and leave the motivations, and supposed tawdry intentions of the Czech speaking parent to the psychologists.
Focus, Jamie boy, focus!
Silvia, you have purportedly achieved “results” with your method, but you have not demonstrated that other methods don’t work, or that people who adhere to the same method less strictly are bound to fail. People can also validly point out situations in which the method you used HASN’T worked. In fact, I have seen such cases.
The reason that I can’t give a definitive answer as to the most effective way to raise a bilingual child is that there is no definitive answer. It’s obvious from empirical observation that there is more than one effective way of raising a child to be bilingual, and that, while your way of doing it may have been effective in your family, the other posters’ ways of doing so are not necessarily going to fail. Just as with adult learning, everything varies, and the results are highly dependent on the surrounding circumstances and attitude of the child, which cannot be predicted or controlled.
There are no definitive answers to questions that have not been proven definitively in all situations. Evolutionary biologists can’t explain definitively how species evolved, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t evolutionary biologists or don’t know what they’re talking about.
And as for your idea that “but still” is a tautology, you’re just dead wrong. It’s obviously one of those surrealistic taboos made up by some paní učitelka somewhere, like when they tell kids that “stranger” and “foreigner” mean the same thing, or that “sweater” is pronounced “sweeter”.
“But” is a conjunction indicating “on the contrary” or “however”. “Still” is an adverb indicating the continuance of an action. My phrase “but still a Russian speaking home” was a perfectly grammatical way of saying, “However, he continued to be in a Russian-speaking home.” Considering your problems understanding something as basic as that, it’s probably better that you don’t speak English to your child.
Silvia,
I just want to say that first of all, by spitting venom on all sides and being condescending to everyone that it not “on your side” is making you look VERY unappealing. I am sorry to say that even though your approach maybe the right one you are giving it a very bad name. If it works so well, why are you being so defensive??
Yes, your son speaks Czech now, but who knows what is he going to do when he is 13? or 19 years of age? He may just create a resentment against you and your “methods” and run away from home.
Just one more thing: do you try to bland with the American culture at all? It seems to me like you are creating a miniature Czech Republic for yourself.
Sweet Tanja,
be sweet by not wishing the worst on the future parent – child relationship of someone who has bested you in an argument.
Petty Tanja,
rise above the pettiness of dismissing a useful suggestion from someone who has no ax to grind in this matter.
I wish you the best in your efforts to educate your child in any way you want. I wish you more success than I have had, and I hope your child is not let down by your lack of commitment to a purpose. By the way, the word is BLEND not BLAND, you blend into a culture, not bland with a culture. Don’t take this too personally, I am only trying to help.
Jamie boy, Jamie boy, Jamie boy,
my English is SUPERIOR to yours, by far. I challenge you to use my suggestion of eliminating either the “but” or the “still” from your imbecilic sentence and see how effective you will be at communicating your inane point. The construction of your sentence is weak, long, and ponderous.
Oh, by the way, since when did “like when they tell kids that “stranger” and “foreigner” mean the same thing” become grammatically correct?
Jamie boy, when did you have your sex change operation from being a Valley Girl, with a thousand “like this” and “like that” per sentence, to this glittering jewel of ignorance of an expert??? Your California Valley Girl roots are showing, your English is too colloquial; for what little you claim to NOT KNOW as an ‘expert’ to be taken seriously. Stop writing in English, study Czech from ‘paní učitelka’.
Silvia, you’re getting more and more ridiculous.
You can’t tell the difference between the usage of “still” that means “stále” and the usage that means “nicméně”. You can’t tell the difference between the preposition “like” that means “similar to” and the “like” that is a “parasitický výraz”.
Considering how poor your skills are at distinguishing grammatical categories, word meanings and sentence constructions, I think the “one-parent/one-child” method is best in your household. You can handle the Czech, and your valutový cizinec can handle the English, since I assume his English knowledge is better than yours.
‘Expert’ Jamie boy,
shouldn’t you, Oh Expert!, evaluate and analyze the many methods of raising a child to be bilingual? You should, Oh Great Expert!, give us some qualitative and maybe quantitative analysis of your preferred method or process, if you will.
What kind of an expert raises up his hands and cries about the futility of getting a handle on that which he claims to be an ‘expert’ on? Shame on you, Jamie boy, you discourage people from trying, and persevering in this noble venture of enriching another human being’s world. You are depressing! Your ignorance is shocking! You take solace in what you don’t know, and hope others will be lost at sea with your ‘there is no definitive answer.’
How about encouraging people to try something, anything, you lily-livered expert.
Oh Supposed Great Academic, aka Jamie boy,
how in the world can you justify your use of either of your defined meaning of like in the sentence: ‘like when they tell kids that “stranger” and “foreigner” mean the same thing.’ Your mastery of the English language is as vacous as your mastery of Czech and your professed profession of linguistics. Linguistics? Linguistics? Yours is definitely the study of inarticulacy and defeatism. Check between your legs, can you confirm the nature of your equipment with a definitive answer?????????
Silvia,
Give it up dear. Jaimie schooled and whipped you like a red headed Russian step child with no teeth.
Your ad hominem attacks and streaming invective make you look really, really lame.
Like gag me with spoon already.
You should know when to stop.
Keef, Oh Keefo,
from under what rock did you crawl out of, to appoint yourself the referee of this little tiff? This is not a nice way to talk about your Russian masters. What is the matter? Did they do it you without lubrication? Do you want this poseur of an expert to do it to you while you grab your ankles? Keefo, Oh Keefo, butt out, you impotent sniveling idiot. Let the fool defend his insipidity.
Wow, you really are rotten. I think you have proven to all here that language, in the end, doesn’t matter nearly as much as the values one teaches. And you show yourself to be seriously lacking in important values such as decency. Yeah you go girl, you teach your kid czech, hopefully someone else in his/her life will teach him how to act human as you surely won’t.
OK Silvia, I think we have had enough of your foul words and I am now banishing you from further contributions.
Thank you Tanja, this started to be way out of control a while back. I cannot believe the lenght she would go. Maybe I am wrong, but the more I am reading these posts the more I feel like this was not even her writing it anymore. Just having somebody else write out her thoughts. Just my thought.
Sounds more like a redneck talking at times. Sorry, I have heard enough around Georgia.
Thanks everybody for your input, every suggestion helps. And don’t feel bad if it does not work with your child or family. You’ll find a way and at the end your child will be thankful to you whether they speak fluent Czech (or any other)or not. I am not putting my children, my husband and family or myself for that matter throu what Silvia thinks is THE ONLY way. Have a good weekend
I suspected that Sylvia had gotten a man to write those last few posts. Such is life on the Internet.
Man, this really sounded like Sylvia has gotten demon-possessed….or her foul-mouthed husband wrote it for her; it’s still kind of hard for me to believe that though.
I’ve seen cases on forums where, for example, a British man poses as a Spanish woman, and evidently all his friends have the login info, so that the same person appears to be on the forum practically 24 hours a day and to have three personalities. I also think some husbands and wives post as the same person.
Jamie,
yes, you are WRONG!You are generalising. You might have met somebody who had other motives for using this method but it doesn’t mean that all parents that choose the OPOL method are the same, it’s almost being discriminative or racist. And why do you always talk about other stuff than what is being discussed????You just mix everything together, sorry I find your posts quite confusing as well as arrogant.
Laura, you’re suffering from miseducation that is somewhat common nowadays. You don’t know the difference between a generalization and a stereotype. Let me educate you: A generalization is a description of something that is usually true, but it does not rule out exceptions. A stereotype is a claim that something is always true, and it allows for NO exceptions.
I don’t deal in stereotypes, but sometimes I deal in generalizations.
But you do something worse. When someone says that “some people” do something (“some” can even mean a small number of people), you push his statement all the way to the wall and pretend he said that ALL people of that category do it. “Some people” does not mean ALL people.
As I say, this is a common deficiency of thought that is caused by bad philosophical education that people get nowadays.
I think you and Silvia have been the ones who are most involved in stereotyping and claiming that things are ALWAYS true. I don’t do that, because there are always exceptions.
I don’t know where your racism claim comes from, because language has nothing to do with race. Besides, Czechs and I are of the same race.
Jamie,
thank you for explaining to me the difference between generalization and stereotype, you were right I was perhaps miseducated, and I accept that I have not expressed myself well in that post, my excuse is that english is not my first language.
However you are supposed to be an expert and are supposedly educated in linguistics so you will forgive me, if I expected an academic style of writing of a higher standard in your article, such as research on the topic and critical analysis of different methods of raising a bilingual child. It is beyond me how you arrive at your conclusions and how you are unable to put your point across. This is why it looks like you are dealing in stereotypes from your articles and posts. And please re-read my posts, I have never stated anywhere that “things are ALWAYS true” quite on the contrary.
People with academic credentials don’t always write in an academic manner. My writing here is informal.
No teda, ja jsem se opravdu nestacila divit, kdyz jsem po nekolika dnech cetla toto forum!!!! Sylvie je dost ranarka, potrebovala by vymyt pusu mydlem ;o) A proc vlastne vsichni pisete najednou jen anglicky, kdyz je tato website hlavne pro cechy? Ne ze by me to nejak zvlast trapilo, to ne, ale vetsinou se tu psalo jen cesky… Taky mam pocit, ze ty konce psal manzel Sylvie. To by se zjistilo, kdyby jste ji/mu odepisovali cesky, on je prece american, a neumi cesky, takze by nicemu nerozumel. Anebo ze by to psal ten jeji synacek ??? ;o) No, byla to ale sila!!!!!!
Ahoj Martino,
piseme anglicky aby tomu rozumneli vsichni; divila by jsi se, kolik Cecho-Americanu/Cizincu je na tento blog zaregistrovanych!!! Tak prosim kdyz v cestine (coz samozrejmne velmi uvitame), tak pokud mozno take kratky anglicky preklad?!
Diky!!!
Hey you guys,
I’m not sure I can even say anything, because I don’t have a child. But from my own experience when I was put into an english school at the age of 13, I know that it is pretty quick to learn a new language at that age. When I walked in my first class all I knew was “my name is….” In three month I was on the phone talking to my friends for hours. I’m not saying that when I have a child I’ll wait till he/she is 13 to start teaching him/her czech. I’m just saying I won’t be so worried if he/she doesn’t speak both languages by the age of 5, because I know that one summer spent with grandparents and he/she’ll learn. If he/she wants to speak both before that I’ll be happy, but what’s the point of pushing it.
The reason I see it this way might also be affected by this book I read years ago. It’s called “Doktorka z domu trubacu” by Ilona Borska. It tells a story of Vlasta Kalalova who was a medical doctor well known for (among others) her ability to learn languages (14). And the reason I’m saying this is that she had a son who she tried to teach languages (her husband was Italian). Well the result was that the child did learn all the languages she taght him but wasn’t able to speak normaly since he didn’t know what his first language was. So he just created sentences using all the languages at once.
I know this is an extreme. Who knows what I’ll do when it comes to it. But I think everyone will find their way of doing it and I’m sure it will work out for you. Good luck to you all
O.K., I read enough. I liked the article for bringing up some points. I liked part of Silvia’s first response for bringing up some other points.
Obviously everybody’s different and what works for you may not work for me and the other way around.
I agree with Jamie on:
“One thing I would add is that if a parent teaches a child the habit of speaking Czech in a way that excludes other people from the conversation….”
First I am a parent, then a language teacher. I want my child to be a good person first and then learn Czech, Spanish whatever. I want my family (and friends) to feel like one unit where nobody is excluded due to language skills. Ignoring anybody because they don’t speak the language is rude. I do not like that.
I’d say: “Play it by ear”.
And Sylvia, get over yourself!
Sylvie prrr!
Opravdu zajimave tema:-) Mam 2 deti, dcera 7 let a syn 5 let. Ja se priznam, ze mi prislo prirozene, ze moje deti budou ovladat oba jazyky. Jsem ta, ktera s detmi komunikuje hlavne CJ. AJ naprosto vyjimecne a moje deti mi prirozene odpovidaji CJ. Dcera je jazykove nadana a uvazovali jsme, ze ji posleme do spanelske skolky. Ja sama ovladam SJ velmi dobre a v Kalifornii je to pomerne nutnost. Syn ten patri k detem, ktere do 3. let hovorily jenom CJ. Travil nejvice casu se mnou. AJ rozumel, ale neodpovidal. Tak jsme ho zapsali na logopedii a i komunikace v AJ se vyrazne zlepsil. Samozrejme i v dusledku zapsani do skolky. K teto debate. Ja nepocituji zadny problem a nebo vyrazeni z mistni spolecnosti, ze s detmi komunikuji CJ. Mam spise pocit, ze moje deti ziskaji znalost dalsiho jazyka “zadarmo a prirozene”:-) Kazde leto travime v CR. Casem chceme i vice cestovat po Evrope. Je prima, ze deti poznaji jine kultury.
Je mi smutno, kdyz jsem tady docetla prizpevky. Asi by to chtelo vice tolerance. Hlavni je, kdyz jsou deti a rodice spokojene. Je pravda, ze to co funguje pro jednu rodinu, tak nemusi fungovat jinde. Ja mam vyhodu, ze muj manzel je velmi zcestovaly. Zil na ruznych mistech, vcetne 4 let v CR. Chceme, aby deti mely rozsirene obzory za hranice USA:-)
Tanja,
Procetla jsem si clanek o tom, jak ucis dcerku cesky. Jses urcite skvela maminka. Delej to, co je pro tebe prirozene. Matka jako ty, nejlepe vyciti, co a jak… Pokud ti dela problem a neni to pro tebe prirozene, mluvit na dcerku jenom CJ. Tak netlac na pilu:-) Dite potrebuje hlavne pohodu. Mne nedelalo a nedela problem mluvit na deti jenom CJ. Jsem extrovert, ktery pusu nezavre. Tak asi proto ovladaji CJ, tak dobre.
A jeste musim dodat, ze na te fotce na predni strane, ti to moc slusi!
Ahoj Julie!
Jsem rada, ze jsi se pridala do debaty 🙂 Vypada, to ze tve deti budou umet cesky velmi dobre. A ucis je take gramatiku??
Ahoj Julie,
dekuju moc, to vis, make-up dela divy 🙂
take dekuji za povzbuzujici slova, asi mluvim za vsechny “hybridaky” (maminky s CJ a AJ). Jinak “netlac na pilu” je pro mne uplne novy vyraz! Musim si to zapamatovat.
Jo, a taky se omouvam, ze jsem te “approved your comments” tak pozde, byla jsem ted pryc a internet tam nefungoval; tak to ted budu vsechno dohanet 🙂
Tanyo,
Vzpomela jsem si na vtipnou prihodu. Kdyz nastoupila dcera minuly rok do kindergarten, tak skola zjistila, ze hovorime doma jinym jazykem. Chteli byt aktivni a tak si ji jednoho dne odvedli ze tridy a chteli otestovat, jak je na tom s AJ a zda nepotrebuje pomoc. Kdyz s dcerou vyplnovali dotaznik, tak na otazku, jakym jazykem dcera doma mluvi. Dcera odpovedela, ze: cesky, nemecky, spanelsky a anglicky:-) Dcera ode mne umela tak 20 spanelskych slov a byla presvedcena, ze ten jazyk dokonale ovlada. To same od manzela nemecky… Ucitelka pak jenom pronesla, ze takovy pripad, tam jeste nemeli:-)
Julie tak to je super prihoda – jsi me pobavila
That was a VERY interesting discussion. I enjoyed reading it:-) I can’t believe how venomous Sylvia became.
Isn’t that crazy?? I know, that’s why it’s nice you can block these types. One thing is to disagree and another thing is to be completely venomous about it.
Can you help me to find any school, college, kids camp, … where we can learn Czech anywhere in the US, other than flying all the way to Czech?
We live in CA but have hard time to find a place to learn basic Czech.
Thank you!
Hi Joice, sorry I don’t 🙁
Everyone is waiting for the Rosetta Stone to come up with the Czech language edition but still nothing!
I don’t think Rosetta stone is all that effective anyway.